With an economist's "small goal", Zhang Jun likes to talk about coffee fountains

Looking back on his previous life, Zhang Jun felt like he was taking part in a tournament. It only makes sense to reach the finish line, and it is only valuable to win the championship. But now he finds that "goals are not important to me. Every step means something to me."

If you can't find Zhang Jun in the dean's office of Fudan Institute of Economics, maybe you should try your luck at the coffee bar.

My interview with Zhang Jun was supposed to be in the dean's office, but he took me to the coffee bar of the School of Economics. This coffee bar occupies most of the open space on the second floor. Beside the solid wood table are rows of bookshelves full of economic and humanities books. The fragrance of coffee and a hint of books make it very suitable for people to empty themselves.

There is also a small room in which there is not much space, just for a long solid wood table and a row of bookshelves. "how's it going? isn't it all right?" Zhang Jun leaned his back against the mat and hid himself in a chair. He could see that he was very satisfied with the coffee bar. He said that sometimes he had to meet more than a dozen people a day, so he sat in this seat and watched a group of people come in and a group of people went out.

The establishment of this coffee bar is directly related to Zhang Jun. The School of Economics originally did not have a coffee bar, and the teachers were usually locked up in their offices and went to the canteen when they had meals, lacking public space for communication. "can you build a coffee bar?" An alumnus of the School of Economics, who has opened at least two coffee shops in Shanghai, immediately said he could donate coffee to the school of economics when he heard of Zhang Jun's idea. Coincidentally, another alumnus of the School of Economics said that he could donate a garden and fountain to the college, improve the environment around the college, and hire a Canadian designer to design the whole garden.

Some people are willing to build coffee bars, fountains and gardens for the college, which is certainly a good thing for the college, teachers and students, but it is not that easy to do. Let's just talk about coffee. How can I get to the electric circuit, plumbing, water and sewer? These things are not only related to the school, but even to the government. Coffee bars cannot be operated to the outside world, but are only open to teachers and students. How can they connect with the financial affairs of the school? How can the all-in-one card of teachers and students be used in the coffee bar? What if there is no corresponding system for in-kind donation? According to the existing regulations, projects with a total amount of more than 500000 yuan need to be tendered and tendered. what if the donor does not agree with it?

"I had just taken up the post of dean at that time, and I didn't understand the school's systems and procedures. I only had enthusiasm, but I didn't know the depth." This is what Zhang Jun said of himself. He did not expect that a small coffee bar would involve so many departments of the school. Infrastructure Office, assets Office, Finance Office, Foreign Liaison Office. Zhang Jun ran all over with his team. However, in retrospect, he thinks this is not a bad thing. "I need to be familiar with the leaders of these departments. In fact, we have become good friends now. "

It is also troublesome to land donations for gardens and fountains. Because there was no bidding for in-kind donation, the plan was rejected directly at the principal's office meeting. Zhang Jun still remembers that he was on a high-speed train to Beijing when he heard the news. "as soon as I hear this, I get anxious. How can I stand up to my alumni?" After returning to Shanghai, Zhang Jun hurriedly went to the headmaster and explained the whole story in detail. "the headmaster is wise." Zhang Jun said that after a retrial proposed by the headmaster, the project was finally saved.

This is just the beginning. after the construction, the engineering team found that there were pipe networks buried underground, unable to move, and there was no way to know who had the right to move them. After weighing again and again, Zhang Jun decided to change the design of the fountain, reduce the area of the fountain and plant plants above the pipe network.

"there are a lot of interesting things in the process." Recalling that experience, Zhang Jun said and laughed, "if you are not full of blood, do not insist, these things can not be done, do not want to do."

Such Zhang Jun is very different from the one I remember. Zhang Jun is a very influential economist in China today. in a website's classification of Chinese economists at different stages, he is classified as the "third generation", along with Lin Yifu, Zhou Qiren and Zhang Weiying.

In the past, when I interviewed Zhang Jun, I usually talked about reform, free trade zone, economic transformation and growth, but now that I am running out of lattes, the topic is still on fountains, gardens and coffee bars.

Zhang Jun's family, friends and colleagues have all noticed the change. His good friend Ye Rong, a famous host of Oriental Satellite TV, said on a public forum that he had changed a lot. He used to be introverted and not very flamboyant, but now he is more sunny and talkative. Zhang Jun's colleagues told Mrs. Zhang Jun privately that Zhang Jun used to be a little arrogant and did not want to talk to people, but now he will nod and greet people when he goes in and out. "actually, I'm not proud. I just don't pay much attention to these things that deal with people outside of academic research." This is Zhang Jun's defense.

Zhang Jun has been a good student since childhood, and he has been successful all the way since he was admitted to Fudan University. although he only graduated from college in 1985, by the end of 1980s, he had occupied a place in the academic circle of young and middle-aged people in China, and rose rapidly in the 1990s. Successful teenagers usually pay little attention to interpersonal relationships, but now Zhang Jun seems to be good at this.

"A serious illness is a trigger for changing lifestyles and attitudes towards life." Zhang Jun's fingers tapped on the table unconsciously. He was referring to the acute lymphoblastic leukemia he suffered from in 2009, after which he received a bone marrow transplant from his brother and has now fully recovered.

"I joked whether it was because my current cell is my brother's, my blood type has changed from A to AB, and my brother's personality is more open and lively."

The change of cell character needs to be further demonstrated scientifically, and Zhang Jun does not think that the change of concept begins in the hospital, but he admits, "there is no doubt that the health crisis will impact the original outlook on life and the world. When you decide to slow down, you realize that you will have more time to reflect on the past than before. Where did you get a chance to reflect on yourself in the past? "

Looking back on his previous life, Zhang Jun felt like he was taking part in a tournament. It only makes sense to reach the finish line, and it is only valuable to win the championship. But now he finds that "goals are not important to me. Every step means something to me."

I noticed that there was a sentence in the signature file of Zhang Jun's reply email: there is no way to happiness, happiness is the way. "in the past, we always thought that there was happiness on the other side, and we must go to the other side to get happiness. Now we know that there is no other side of happiness, and happiness is on the way to the other side." In the interview, Zhang Jun explained his understanding of the English sentence in this way.

During his recovery from the hospital, Zhang Jun recovered the sketch that had been abandoned for 40 years. Because of his busy work, he almost forgot that he liked to draw in primary and middle school. In his misread Chinese economy, published in 2015, there is a long passage in the author's profile: "I love western painting and architecture that emphasize formal beauty." Have some training in calligraphy (left and right pen) and abacus. When I was in college, I paid special attention to the work and personal anecdotes of natural scientists. Like to enjoy photography, sculpture, architectural works and classical music. In high school, he played the flute, made sculptures and carved mechanical models. There is a great increase in interest in tourism and outdoor sports. I love building lawns and gardens, but I love my family more. "

"although my physical strength is not as strong as it used to be, the state I pursue now is to make sure that my heart is not tired." Zhang Jun said that mental tiredness comes from constant pressure. To achieve inner balance, we need to try to ignore the pressure, abandon worries, focus on the big points, and try to avoid the pursuit of too much detail.

This kind of mentality directly affects his perspective and academic research. During his recovery, at the invitation of his friend Zhang Lifen, Zhang Jun wrote a column for FT Chinese website, writing articles about China's economy regularly. He was also invited to write an English column for Project Syndicate. Many people reflected to him that the articles he wrote after his illness were different from those before, and he stood higher. "they said that my previous article was not powerful enough, but now it is powerful."

Changes are also reflected in administrative work, and trifles and people and things that Zhang Jun could not tolerate in the past can now be tolerated. "you should always remind yourself that in your work, you must see everyone's strengths and look at the big picture, so that you can jointly promote the development of the work of the college."

In an exclusive interview with him in Jiefang Daily a few years ago, he mentioned that if there was a time machine, he would like to go back to 2009. But this time, when I asked him to rate life beyond 2015, he showed a high score of 9. This score is even higher than his previous life score.

Zhang Jun's old photos when he was an undergraduate in Fudan University.

Zhang Jun took a photo with his teacher Yin Bocheng when he was studying in Fudan University.

In 1990, Zhang Jun studied at the International Summer School of the London School of Economics

The sketch of his wife hung in Zhang Jun's home.

On the "small goal" of becoming Dean: "the School of Economics should achieve painless transformation"

Shangguan News: since you have had a serious illness, why take over the post of dean? Does the current work intensity have any effect on your health?

Zhang Jun: I was hospitalized in 2009 and had a bone marrow transplant. Now I have been cured. But at that time, I had the courage to accept this appointment in the organization. So many people remind me that being a dean will have any impact on my health. Now it seems to be all right. I can handle it properly. Although the intensity of the work has increased, the nature of the work has changed.

I am now looking for a balance in my time mix every day. In addition to administrative work, I have to guide the research of master's degree and doctoral students, as well as collaborative research, attend lectures, and attend some important international and domestic meetings. I need to find a balance in various types of work combinations, so that I can be "very busy". In the language of mathematical optimization principle, I only did research in the past. At that time, the optimal solution was a "corner solution". Now my optimal solution is a "corner solution", .

Shangguan News: after you became dean of the School of Economics, many new actions of the School of Economics, including alumni donations, the establishment of a global alumni association, etc., why do you regard alumni as a starting point in the construction of the college?

Zhang Jun: you know, the old domestic schools of economics have a common problem: heavy burden, aging personnel, backward system, slow pace of internationalization, although they can still eat their old money for many years, they are no longer able to face the competition from emerging colleges and international competitors. Financially speaking, if a college still relies mainly on the basic operation and development funds allocated by the school today, the speed of development will be restricted.

Compared with the gap between first-class universities and disciplines, we have too many things to develop and transform, the talent structure should be updated, the way of training graduate students should be changed, the quality and level of scientific research should be improved, and the infrastructure of hardware and software should be modernized. the level of internationalization should be improved, and even administrative logistics should be efficient and bilingual. All these require a lot of investment.

I also know exactly what a college can do under the existing system. We can't push it down and start over, can we? Can only develop in the increment, through the expansion of the increment to gradually optimize the structure and achieve a higher stage of development. Therefore, I believe that in order to achieve painless transformation, the School of Economics needs to find a breakthrough. Can it rely more on the increment of social resources to develop itself? This is the question that came to my mind from the very beginning, that is, can the School of Economics be invigorated as perhaps the most important external asset? What are our external resources? In addition to getting support from government-supported projects, perhaps the biggest external resource is our alumni resources.

First of all, I need to know how many alumni we have, but we don't have a good database, and no one can tell. So the first administrative office I set up after I took office was the Alumni Service Center, and the first thing the center did was to set up a database of alumni. Interestingly, we built this database with the technical support of alumni. Statistics show that the college has more than 46,000 registered alumni.

I discussed with the college team that we must set up our own alumni association, and I still have a strong tone to set up the global alumni association of the School of Economics of Fudan University. This idea has won the support of the party and government groups as well as the approval of the school. After our meeting in October 2015 to celebrate the 30th anniversary of the founding of the School of Economics of Fudan University, we announced the establishment of the Global Alumni Association. We have invited alumnus Wu Jinglian, a famous economist, and Lu Zhiqiang, chairman of Oceanwide Group, as honorary chairmen. Two other distinguished alumni served as co-executive presidents.

We have also established a local alumni liaison office under the Global Alumni Association. At the first licensing ceremony of the local liaison office of the Global Alumni Association of the School of Economics, Mr. Jiang Changjian presided over the ceremony. I remember he said, "Don't look down upon the local liaison office. These are all remarkable places, the first New York, the second Hong Kong, the third Frankfurt, the fourth Beijing, and the fifth Shenzhen." Since 2015, we have set up 28 liaison offices, and then Xiamen, Tianjin, Hefei and Chongqing will be listed.

In 2015, Asia Pacific Holdings Group donated 150 million yuan to the School of Economics out of alumni friendship?

Zhang Jun: yes, I find that as long as there is a good idea, alumni are very willing to support it.

When I reported to the president for the first time after taking office, I pointed out that the School of Economics needs a new building, and I also want to build a high-end school of international finance in line with the goal of building an international financial center in Shanghai. I also expressed the idea of seeking the support of Lu Zhiqiang, an alumnus of Fudan University. The headmaster was very supportive. I remember that in March 2015, I was walking on the playground one night when the principal who attended the two sessions in Beijing called me and asked me to fly to Beijing to visit Lu Zhiqiang the day after tomorrow and asked me to write a basic plan.

I wrote an one-page outline with about nine ideas. First, to establish the Fudan Pan Hai Institute of International Finance, the subject of finance is the strength of the School of Economics. In order to better train financial talents and serve the construction of an international financial center, a school of international finance should be established. Second, I want to build a new school of economics building. Third, it is necessary to set up a board of directors and an international advisory committee of the School of Economics. Fourth, it is necessary to set up a development fund for the School of Economics, and so on.

Watching the news: I remember you said in your "inaugural speech" that you hoped that there would be a new building next to the old building, connected by an air corridor, and there was laughter and applause at the scene.

Zhang Jun: I'm a little scared now. I was just on the spur of the moment. I didn't discuss the feasibility with anyone at that time. I didn't have time to report it to the school leader, and I didn't know if the school had any land for secondary development. It was just a pipe dream.

Watch the news: then why did you blurt it out?

Zhang Jun: maybe it's envy and envy. I have been to many fraternal colleges, and I pay great attention to the hardware there. It is found that some colleges have very good hardware, almost first-class, and some have set up branches elsewhere. Hardware is not only the result of development, but also crucial to further development. If nothing else, isn't it important to take a look at the China Europe International Business School in Pudong, the first-class campus and hardware facilities? Building a new building is one of my dreams. Wang Jianlin didn't say "small goal" at that time, .

Later, I thought, now that this has been said, I have written this point into the plan. Lu Zhiqiang expressed support for the idea of building alumni associations, setting up funds and building buildings. Lu Zhiqiang said: "you calculate the size of the building, calculate how much money is needed, and I will pay for it." In this way, in May 2015, Asia Pacific Holdings Group donated 150 million yuan to Fudan University for the construction of the new building of the School of Economics and the establishment of the School of International Finance.

The establishment of the whole building project has been strongly supported by the secretary and principal of our school. In Beijing, the headmaster personally stood on the platform, which touched me very much. Later, Secretary Zhu Zhiwen personally led the vice president in charge of infrastructure construction to the School of Economics for research. I accompanied him to the eighth floor of the current School of Economics to inspect possible construction sites. Now that the project is progressing smoothly, Lu Zhiqiang invited seven international design firms to participate in the bidding, and finally a plan in New York was approved.

Throughout 2015, in addition to Lu Zhiqiang's huge donation, the aforementioned alumni donated coffee bars, gardens and fountains, and two other alumni donated 20 million yuan and 10 million yuan respectively, expanding the plate of our development fund. With these donations, we have not only created and improved the internal small environment, but also have the strength to speed up the introduction of high-end talents and promote our deficiency construction in the past two years.

Look at the news: more than 60% of the alumni of the School of Economics work in the financial industry. are the alumni of your college the most well-funded group of Fudan alumni?

Zhang Jun: yes, most of our alumni should be students who just graduated after the reform and opening up. It happens to be these people who are more active in the financial sector.

In terms of the whole country, according to statistics, our school of economics has trained the largest number of chief economists of financial institutions. In addition, Mr. Zhu Min, former Vice President of IMF, and Professor Wei Shangjin, former Chief Economist of Asian Development Bank, both graduated from our School of Economics. At the first Fudan Institute of Economics Forum held in 2015, Mr. Wu Jinglian also said in his speech: "I am also the Chief Economist" because he used to be the Chief Economist of CICC.

In the past two years, the Fudan Chief Economist Forum launched by our Global Alumni Association and the annual meeting of the Global Alumni Association of the School of Economics have become more and more influential in the academic and industry circles, both of which are sponsored by our alumni.

Watching the news: is the income of faculty and staff also increasing now?

Zhang Jun: I have said again and again that the most important task for the college is to train students. We need a large number of outstanding economists and excellent teachers and an attractive teaching and research environment in order to attract outstanding students to apply to the School of Economics. We are increasing investment in these areas. In particular, combined with the construction of the Pan-Shanghai Institute of International Finance, from 2015 to now, we should vigorously enhance the introduction of overseas talents combined with discipline construction.

In terms of talent introduction, I propose to walk on two legs and improve the introduction mechanism of high-end talents in the "primary market" and "secondary market". The "primary market" refers to the labor market that newly released doctoral students enter for the first time. We recruit people at the annual meeting of the American Economic Society in January every year. For example, in January this year, we received more than 300 applications, selected more than 80 people to interview in Chicago, and finally recruited 8 people, with an average annual salary of more than 400000 yuan.

By "secondary market" I mean outstanding people who have already worked in other universities or research institutions. According to the needs of discipline development, every year we will target some scholars who are very outstanding in scientific research and achievements. they can be professors or associate professors. the annual salary of these people is generally between $600000 and $1 million, and in individual cases they can be even higher.

Of course, our existing teaching staff, including administrative and logistics staff, should also continuously improve their income levels and benefits according to their performance and the depth of the college's career development. I now deeply understand why presidents or deans of foreign universities regard fund-raising as a top priority. Shortly after I became dean, I once said at a group meeting that I expected the total income of the college to exceed 100 million in two years' time. In that case, it shows that our investment in teaching, personnel training, scientific research, talent introduction, internationalization and even administrative logistics has been greatly increased.

Now I am very pleased that our investment in all kinds of work has increased greatly, especially in student training, scientific research incentive and talent introduction. In addition, I also put pressure on our team, promising that the income of faculty and staff will increase significantly every year. So far, these two goals have been achieved, which shows that our team has worked very hard and has achieved a "small goal".

Photos of Zhang Jun when he was studying abroad

Photos of Zhang Jun when he was studying abroad

Talking about personal change: "if you don't fit in with society, how can you improve this society?"

Watching the news: if you spend a lot of time working in the college, will it affect your personal research?

Zhang Jun: that must have an impact. But you have to admit, this is also very important and meaningful work. And now that we have done such a thing, we must strengthen our faith and take the initiative to do a good job.

For me personally, scholarship is very important, but at my age, it no longer means thinking about how to publish papers, but should do more to think about deeper issues.

I know very well that as far as I am concerned, scholarship is not entirely measured by the number of papers published. In the past, I had the goal of publishing papers, and I did specific research on fragmentation, but now I have no pressure to issue papers, and I have reached the stage of transcending fragmentation research. After I became an executive, it affected the time I used to do fragmented research, and it did not affect my interest and enthusiasm in thinking and studying deeper and bigger issues.

Watching the news: what's the big problem?

Zhang Jun: saying that big problems may lead to ambiguity, it is relative to minor problems. For example, we used to do macroeconomic research to study these very specific aspects, such as total factor productivity, economic growth, changes in the labor market, interest rates, exchange rates and so on. Now I prefer to stand tall and think about the connection between these things. I am now more accustomed to using these associations to consider the mechanisms behind some phenomena.

For example, now many people, even ordinary people, believe that our country's economy has been plagued by the shortage of money in recent years. But I think this view only sees something more superficial. If you could stand higher, would you think about the conceptual significance of the division between virtual and real? If it doesn't make sense, the unrealism you see may be the result of a subtle change in the source of productivity growth, but we may not fully understand it. I didn't think much about these more interesting questions before, but now I do.

In the past, when I did localized fragmentation research, like most people, there was an invisible wall between the plates that blocked your view, and you didn't care, because it didn't prevent you from writing a paper that could be published. If you can stand higher and cross these walls, you may see something different. Relationships that could not be seen in the past may now be discovered, which is more helpful for us to understand the real economy.

Watching the news: you have been studying the economy for a long time, and now you are really involved in the hot economic life. How do you feel?

Zhang Jun: this is interesting. A person who does economic research usually does not do much business and is often dismissive of specific operations. He does not seem to have much interest in practical operations, nor does he have the ability to do so.

Administrative management contains two levels, one is the rational side, you should identify the law and follow the law. But on the other hand, it has nothing to do with reason, it is more emotional, it is interpersonal relationship, and we need to coordinate all kinds of relationships, so we need some skills to deal with it.

It's not easy for a professor to be a dean in a university, especially if you really want to do something to catch up. I encounter new problems every day, and sometimes I wonder how things can go on and on. Fortunately, the big leaders of the school and the leaders of many departments are still very supportive to me. I remember talking to the director of the school infrastructure department about the garden donation project. The director said that I had never received a dean in the office. Out of this feeling, mutual understanding and respect, they will also support my work.

Intellectuals are usually high-minded, but if you are a dean, sometimes you should not regard yourself as a dean or a well-known scholar. So so far, it seems that everything I have to do has been done, although it has not been done overnight.

The so-called aloof intellectuals are sometimes pathetic. If you don't fit in with the society, how can you improve the society? We still have to be in close contact with this society. At the beginning, the school did not have written regulations on in-kind donation, but with our case, if the school has similar in-kind donation in the future, we can follow the model of the School of Economics. This is improvement.

I have studied China's economic reform for so many years, and I probably know what China has done right. Sometimes there is no system, then do things first, then go back to establish a standardized system; sometimes the system has existed for a long time, but this system makes it impossible for you to do what you want to do, and you cannot accept it, but as long as you feel that this matter is important to the development plan, you have to find a way to break through and eventually promote development and change the system. There were too many such reformers in the past, and without them, China could not have reached the level of development it is today. I know that I am not a reformer, nor do I have the ability to do so, but I persevere. I insist on something that is beneficial to the development of the school and college, and I may be able to do it in the end.

A corner of the coffee bar of the School of Economics of Fudan University

Fountain of School of Economics, Fudan University

On the relationship between economists and the government: "many well-trained economists have torn this skin."

Look at the news: your group of economists who emerged in the 1980s have a relatively close relationship with the government. You have also participated in some decision-making and consultation activities in Shanghai and the whole country many times, and you have also been invited to attend a symposium on the economic situation chaired by Premier Li Keqiang. When did you first start?

Zhang Jun: the first time I met the city leader was Wang Daohan. I had just graduated from graduate school at that time. He likes reading, and once after reading several books on economics, he wanted to talk to some young people, so he asked me to go, too. I remember his office at that time in the Bund municipal government, now Pudong Development Bank, in a corner on the first floor, he was wearing a pair of cloth shoes and looked very casual. We exchanged our reading experiences, talked about our understanding of economic reform, and talked about what we thought. The atmosphere was very good. I am the youngest scholar among the participants.

Later, when Xu Kuangdi was mayor of Shanghai, apart from meeting him at the decision-making consultation meeting, he invited us to eat and chat with the municipal government every year, which lasted for many years. More than a dozen people sat around eating and chatting, and it was also very relaxed.

Later, I was hired as a member of the decision-making Advisory Committee of the Shanghai Municipal CPC Committee, and Secretary Han Zheng personally issued certificates to us. I am also a specially invited consulting researcher of the Central Committee of the Democratic Progressive Association, and Chairman Yan Junqi issued a letter of appointment for me. In addition, I also maintain a close relationship with the Counsellor's Office of the State Council.

Looking back on the news: back in the 1980s, economists were very involved in advising the government, but now they don't seem to have that much influence.

Zhang Jun: are you talking about the influence on the government or society? Economists in the 1980s, whether in terms of knowledge structure or analytical ability, can certainly not be compared with today's young economists. The economists who were active in the 1980s were not involved in decision-making, let alone economic operators, but more in leading ideas. In this sense, although many people were very active in the ideological circle at that time, there was still a skin between it and the economic governance at that time.

By the 1990s things began to change. Quite a number of economists who were very active in the 1980s have torn this skin and directly participated in the operation of the economy. For example, the leaders of the central bank, the CSRC and safe are all former economists. Zhou Xiaochuan, Lou Jiwei, Guo Shuqing, Yi Gang and Fang Xinghai are all economists.

In addition to this group of leading economists, we also have academic economists, which are the vast majority. Nowadays, there are more and more young people among academic economists, who teach and do research in universities and keep a certain distance from the government itself. It is becoming more and more obvious that the main task of this young team is to do purer economic research and publish high-quality research papers.

We can't rush for quick success and quick profits. these academic young scholars are the backbone of Chinese economics, even though they seem to be far away from our policies or decisions right now. Fortunately, some of our economists have turned to policy research and advisory services, some of them come from a team of academic senior economists, and some are already in think-tank institutions, such as the Academy of Social Sciences or the Party School.

In general terms, it used to be a group of people, but now it is divided into three groups of people. The same is true internationally.

Watching the news: what do you think is the difference between doing economic research now and before?

Zhang Jun: in fact, I have been paying attention to and studying the Chinese economy in the post-reform period, and this has not changed much so far. Because of the study of Chinese economy, I must observe and familiarize myself with our economic operation closely. This has been the case since I was a graduate student in the mid-1980s. I remember that as soon as I stayed in school, I actively participated in the research activities on the reform of state-owned enterprises sponsored by the Municipal Economic Commission. We went to the Textile Bureau, Mechanical and Electrical Bureau, instrument Bureau, and Light Industry Bureau at that time, and met many factory directors and managers of state-owned enterprises. some are very good entrepreneurs. For example, the boss of the Shanghai White Cat, we are still in touch, and the director of the Shanghai Blade Factory, recently we got in touch again.

At that time, everyone was very simple and organized relevant personnel to have a discussion with you. If you go to an enterprise now, you may not see the chairman or general manager at all.

(when Zhang Jun joined the state-owned enterprise reform research group in the early 1990s, the two in the middle of the back row were the factory director of Shanghai Blade Factory and the boss of Shanghai White Cat, and the third from right in the back row was Zhang Jun.)

Looking at the news: in this way, economists of your generation may be the only ones that strike a balance between scholarship and practice.

Zhang Jun: I think it depends on what research you do and what problems you study. I do Chinese economic research, of course, I need to know more about this economy, to understand this economy does not require you to be a trader. Now many young scholars do not study the Chinese economy, but study the problems of the United States, or purely theoretical issues, that is different.

Most of the graduate students I mentored also chose the Chinese economy as their research object, but they didn't have more opportunities and patience to observe the real economy than we did at that time, and they felt much worse. They often do research based on other people's research literature or data. This is a problem, but I think it can be changed step by step.